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I was about to discuss this in the Sub8 thread when rooster kind of indirectly made it clear I was heading into a theory... so here we go, yet another Redafro theory!
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Redafro's Submachine, Plan, Knot, and Beamer Theory:

Submachines are something like a physics mechanism: a computer like, even AI like, device which is a part of a location and produces local physics distortions. A further likely result is that through physics manipulation a submachine "programs" real objects to serve specific purposes, like a leaf and pedestal being a teleporter [(though they don't appear to be a part of the local submachine)]*(Sub3), or a room connected with a circular device creates a kind of time distortion (Sub5). This could be done through something like a batch file or program that is attached to the object by the submachine. The program would exist as a part of the submachine/physics relationship. (I don't know exactly how this works, but I've theorized about it in other theories.) So, the properties of the leaf and time shift room are not the results of mechanisms within the leaf or room, but from mechanisms or programing [attached to the object turning the object into something like an app which the submachine runs when someone or something activates it]* It's all real, the location and the objects are not simulations, but they are acted on by the real physic altering programing of the submachine.

[So, quite likely people like Mur and the Layer 5 people know how to reprogram a Submachine to have whatever properties they wish it to have. [(I always think of Mur's communication room in SNEE: what if that computer could be used to write submachine apps?)]* With the case of the Subnet, however, these properties are either randomly generated, created by the local Submachines AI, or possibly by another Submachine's AI. Submachines reprogramming Submachines, and thus the Subbots and Defsys are made. The question that is still uncertain is if a locations programing can be rewritten once that location is created, or is it somehow set in stone. That a location can be retro-reprogrammed might be evidenced by the apparent retro-fitting of various SNEE locations to seem to serve specific human, not submachine, needs. Example: Mur's computer room, subbot research room, etc. [A further evidence of the programability of submachines might be the repetition of objects (copy and pasted?) like the cushioned chair that appears in Sub2, Sub4, FLF and SNEE. Perhaps copy and paste is part of how a submachine adopts a location.]*

The Karma Portals appear to damage the programming of a local Submachine, and thus these areas begin to dissolve and eventually collapse. [A question is raised about why specific things survive the karma portals by this quote:

Quote:
So when things started to collapse, why certain bits and pieces got left behind?
They just stayed in place...
And why those in particular?


This]* may relate either to the Submachine's AI choosing what stays for its own purpose (by somehow guarding those parts of itself), or that the programing is written in such a way that it can protect the most important parts of a location to a certain extent.

Edit 12/9/1012 8:22 am Central time]

The Subnet we know, which ever Layer it is on, is a chaotic outgrowth of the local Core which began somewhere in the 1900's as a result of people from our earth meddling with the Core Submachine. (Mateusz has suggested that we do not know whether there are Subnets on the other Layers or if the Cores on the other Layers remained undamaged.) They may have either created a teleporter that dropped them into the Core, or they might have found a place where the Core overlaps our world and began running experiments which caused the uncontrolled chaotic growth of the Subnet.

Most likely, submachines inhabit pocket dimensions, or bubble universes, within their local layer. Think of a black hole, where the normal layer of reality is stretched like a funnel. Now picture that instead of rounding out to form a bottom, it flares out like a balloon, or an hour glass. This bubble is the space the submachines inhabit, first the core, then later the Subnet as it expanded uncontrollably. Notice, though, that there is an opening into the Submachine space. Perhaps there are more than one of these funnel like entrances. The question is, is there a kind of gravity, figuratively or otherwise, that makes it hard to get back out.

The Beamers and the Navigator are devices that work together to unite the layers and make traveling between them possible. [This is done in a kind of quilting fashion, with each beamer acting like a thread that unites a local area according to a preprogrammed pattern. Edit 12/9/2012 8:24 am] It is quite possible that these devices only work within the unique, physics altering atmosphere of the Submachines.

The Plan seems to be a plan to unite all 7 layers in one gloriously interconnected reality, but this was suppose to only happen at the Core(s) of those interconnecting Submachines. In other words, not a uniting of the 7 Layers, but something like a bridge between the 7 layers, a bridge made of Submachines united by Beamers. To what end, I'm not sure. Perhaps just because they could, or perhaps as a way to create a stable path between the 7 layers of reality. Once the chaotic growth of the Subnet began in our Layer, it ruined the rest of the Plan.

If these theories are correct they imply that there is a group of people responsible for devising the Plan, perhaps even of inventing the submachines. This is because the 1900's explorers ruined the Plan by initiating the Subnet growth, and they couldn't have ruined the Plan if it had not already been in process before the 1900's explorers intervened. The growth of the Subnet may have ruined the Plan by creating a space, and a set of submachines, too large to successfully overlap with the other Layers.

The Knot was constructed as an demonstration of the plan: not the teleporting from one random and meaningless location to another as has happened in the Subnet, but the distinct and intentional overlapping of locations to perform specific purposes, which was the purpose of the Plan. The Knot also acts as a locked gateway to anyone attempting to enter Layer 5. It is not clear if it was originally intended to be a gateway [with which to guard against invasion from Mur and Co or others]*, or if it was retro-equipped for the purpose.

Like the Plan, the Knot is like a bubble of the 7 Layers united by the Beamers which are enabled and controlled by a submachine on each layer. Unlike the Plan, however, the Knot is not a part of our Subnet. It is an independent set of Beamer connected Submachines within bubble dimensions on each of the 7 Layers.

The green portal in Sub 8 would have taken us from the Core of our Layer into the Core of Layer 5, but the Knot caught us.

It would appear, from the dialogue at the beginning of Sub8, that Mur helped make the Knot, either by suggesting how it could be done, or by doing it: opening a portal within a portal, thus creating the Knot. [So, again, we do not know if he helped make it and it was retrofitted to be a gateway to try to keep him out, or if they simply used the trick he invented to create the Knot.

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Pheuww! I'm spent! If you want me to quote more source evidence, I'll work on that later and insert it into [] brackets with the date of the edit.

*[Edits as of 12/10/2012 4:15 pm]


Last edited by Redafro on 10 Dec 2012 23:27, edited 4 times in total.



09 Dec 2012 01:02
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I always enjoy your Theories though :P

To be honest, I was going to mark this "Still Alive"...until I came across this:

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In other words, not a uniting of the 7 Layers, but something like a bridge between the 7 layers, a bridge made of Submachines united by Beamers.


I snapped my fingers, the lightbulb went off. Remember this? Of course you do:

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I think they are designed as FIRST-ever dimensional pathway that lead to different dimensions within the planet Earth.
I dunno what went wrong since Submachine is out of control.

Have you noticed the way Submachines are structured? They appears to be more organically developed than built by our hands. In addition, they seems to thrive in the region of darkness that cannot be entered easily. Somehow the Submachines still have physical connection between lands where we can still walk about, possibly within different dimensions. In addition, Submachines could be the trans-dimensional pathways constructed to lead from one dimension to other dimension within same Earth, loooong before the portals were invented in about year 2000 (or year 1960-1970 if you count Mur's karma arm). Or... they were invented in 1970 with Mur begin traveling the Net in 1940.


-ak-'s Dimensional Pathway Theory. In some aspect, what you're saying is this sentence right here:

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Somehow the Submachines still have physical connection between lands where we can still walk about, possibly within different dimensions. In addition, Submachines could be the trans-dimensional pathways constructed to lead from one dimension to other dimension


Take away the "Earth" parts, which make it somewhat Doubtful in my opinion, and voila: You just expanded on his Theory.

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This is because the 1900's explorers ruined the Plan by initiating the Subnet growth


Note from here:

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Once the great scheme of things was clearly visible through the layers of seven main dimensions.

Right now due to corossion, collapse and spontaneous growth of the outer rim the plan is almost unrecognizable.

We humans deserted the outer rim, and the outer rim responded with deserting us.


We could assume it was the Explorers though.

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The Knot was constructed as an demonstration of the plan: not the teleporting from one random and meaningless location to another as has happened in the Subnet, but the distinct and intentional overlapping of locations to perform specific purposes, which was the purpose of the Plan. The Knot also acts as a locked gateway to anyone attempting to enter Layer 5. It is not clear if it was originally intended to be a gateway, or if it was retro-equipped for the purpose.


Clever, clever...So the Knot was basically a human-made DefSys to conjoin the Layers, as well as (by me saying "human-made DefSys") protect the Layers....Oh! Protect them from Mur! Possibly! Very possible, to stop his Karma powers from damaging the Layers further. Ah, I like this very much.

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It would appear, from the dialogue at the beginning of Sub8, that Mur helped make the Knot, either by suggesting how it could be done, or by doing it: opening a portal within a portal, thus creating the Knot.


And thus shoots down the previous thought I'm not willing to erase just yet...As if Mur wants to break the "DefSys" he set up. Unless...Unless that is his intention because now he realizes that the copied Layers are harming the SubNet.

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Like the Plan, the Knot is like a bubble of the 7 Layers united by the Beamers which are enabled and controlled by a submachine on each layer. Unlike the Plan, however, the Knot is not a part of our Subnet. It is an independent set of Beamer connected Submachines within bubble dimensions on each of the 7 Layers.


I'd say this part is Still Alive, can't really argue it.

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Pheuww! I'm spent! If you want me to quote more source evidence, I'll work on that later and insert it into [] brackets with the date of the edit.


*applauds* This may be a Theory you won't need to edit anytime soon.


09 Dec 2012 02:26
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Thanks for the praise man! XD This is basically my impression of what is happening. Some of it I thought was obvious, but I finally made it into a theory. XD Thanks for sighting the quotes too. I was just shooting from the hip. As for Ak's theory, I'm honestly not all that familiar with it. I would only say that he doesn't seem to have the idea of the 7 Layers yet, and if he had that it would all connect up similar to what I am saying... perhaps. The dimensions on earth is a little odd though. There may not be an earth as we know it on the other layers. In fact, the whole 4th dynasty thing seems to suggest otherwise.

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And thus shoots down the previous thought I'm not willing to erase just yet...As if Mur wants to break the "DefSys" he set up. Unless...Unless that is his intention because now he realizes that the copied Layers are harming the SubNet.


I don't think it shoots it down. I didn't say it, but I figured he helped set it up before the whole being buried in the lighthouse thing. This theory would, I suppose, suggest that Liz is a part of the Layer 5 people who made The Plan.

I gotta put my son to bed and get to bed myself now. So goodnight!

Edit: just added a few points in the []. @:)


09 Dec 2012 03:45
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Thanks for the praise man! XD


You're welcome!

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Some of it I thought was obvious, but I finally made it into a theory. XD


It always helps to point out the obvious though XD

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As for Ak's theory, I'm honestly not all that familiar with it. I would only say that he doesn't seem to have the idea of the 7 Layers yet, and if he had that it would all connect up similar to what I am saying... perhaps. The dimensions on earth is a little odd though. There may not be an earth as we know it on the other layers. In fact, the whole 4th dynasty thing seems to suggest otherwise.


Keep in mind -ak-'s Theory is pre-Sub7 (I'm not sure when exactly he made it, but I know for a fact it was before Sub7 and has its own SNEE room.) I was saying you were basically updating that Theory to fit in Sub7-Sub8. And like I said, some parts (as you mentioned - Earth) may be Doubtful, but the overall premise is something I feel you're saying.

Though I wasn't sure whether or not you knew of -ak-'s Theory, I assumed you did though, and also I added the "Sure you do" to sound like the Old Spice guy, not to scold you or anything :P

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I don't think it shoots it down. I didn't say it, but I figured he helped set it up before the whole being buried in the lighthouse thing. This theory would, I suppose, suggest that Liz is a part of the Layer 5 people who made The Plan


It wouldn't be surprising if Liz helped with The Plan (even though I'm not 100% sure the Explorers [the "Layer 5 people"] are behind The Plan), but possible. And, well, you did say Mur helped with the Knot, so wouldn't it be logical to say that the Knot wasn't made to stop Mur if Mur helped create it? Although, as I said later, it could be possible he's trying to break into his own DefSys.

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Edit: just added a few points in the []. @:)


*reads*

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Liz's question about why specific parts stay behind may relate to either the Submachine's AI choosing what stays for its own purpose (by somehow guarding those parts of itself), or that the programing is written in such a way that it can protect the most important parts of a location to a certain extent.


Which question are you referring to? The only question I can think of, she answered herself - The one about the "garden plans." Either way, this whole "programming" part (forgot to mention this before) was something Vortex and I discussed in the PastelForum Sub9 Theories thread, so it's funny you're taking that idea, because that was actually a Theory I wanted to write :P

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This is done in a kind of quilting fashion, with each beamer acting like a thread that unites a local area according to a preprogrammed pattern


Nice idea.

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Geotags are apparently a device used to track where people are in relationship to each other on the various layers


Well, no, the Geotag system was before the discovery of different Layers. I assume it was used to track where others are in the SubNet itself before they knew the existence of Layers. Now Layers just confuses everything because someone could be tracking down another person they believe is in the same Layer because they know their Geotag, yet they could be on a completely different Layer.

Interesting how I have more to say on your Edits than your actual Theory XD


09 Dec 2012 21:47
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Nice, nice. Although Rooster already has taken up most points that I would've too, I will take up these:

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So, the properties of the leaf and time shift room are not the results of mechanisms within the leaf or room, but from mechanisms or programing within the "atmosphere" of the location


The leaf and the pedestal are not native to the loop. Well, I don't know about the pedestal, but the leaf isn't. It broke the loop and disconnected us like "a grain of sand in the Large Hadron Collider" as Mateusz put it.

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10 Dec 2012 10:41
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Ant, what else would there be to debate? I basically tore apart the Theory XD

Regardless, about what you said about the Leaf: I had no knowledge about that subject, but now I have a thought - What if it was an "Indiana Jones"-type deal, and someone (possibly Mur?) took away whatever was left on the Pedestal that The Loop created (according to Red's Theory) and put the Leaf in order to corrupt the system and find a way to escape The Loop?


10 Dec 2012 20:53
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, so wouldn't it be logical to say that the Knot wasn't made to stop Mur if Mur helped create it? Although, as I said later, it could be possible he's trying to break into his own DefSys.

It's just amazing the things I can assume without being aware I'm doing it, until some tricksy rooster starts pecking about. XD I'm assuming that he was with the Layer 5 guys, and thus with Liz, before they decided to bury him. So it would go something like this: Mur discovers the Core with his Karma Arm. He hangs out with the Layer 5 guys, and every one is happy and interested in his amazing ability and even use it to set up the Knot (or, like I said, learn how to do it from him)... until it is discovered that his Karma Portals disrupt the Submachine's capacity to control the environment and people start dying. Then they first exile him to the Lighthouse, then bury the lighthouse. Badaboom Badabail, now Mur is back to kick their tail. Guess I should put that in the theory too.

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Which question are you referring to?

This one:
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So when things started to collapse, why certain bits and pieces got left behind?

They just stayed in place...

And why those in particular?

Ahh... doesn't say it is from Liz. Ok, so I'll edit out out the part that it is from Liz and just quote the note. XP

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Well, no, the Geotag system was before the discovery of different Layers.

And we know this how? They aren't even mentioned until Sub8... hmmm... so your saying that this note is from Mur's team and they were using them to track each other in the subnet, but that the geotags also just happen to work across layers, and that was what was so confusing to the guys using them? Interesting theory... I assumed the geotags were used by the Layer 5 people to track who is on what Layer and something was wrong with the geotags they were using (If not this, then all of Mur's invading team must have Navigators [or am I using the wrong term there?] to switch between layers with). I also figured this because we had never even heard about geotags until we got to sub8. Hm. Oh well, I'll just strike that part out. It's not necessary to the theory and there is next to no evidence what a geotag even is.

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The leaf and the pedestal are not native to the loop.

Of course not, I never said it was. That was an example of a submachine being either reprogrammed, or else the leaf and pedestal were products of another submachine that were moved into that location. The point is that I don't think there was anything magical or technological in the leaf and pedestal. They are simply objects which a submachine has attached physics altering programing to.

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I basically tore apart the Theory XD

Is that humor? You really didn't tear it up dude. ;)

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took away whatever was left on the Pedestal that The Loop created (according to Red's Theory) and put the Leaf in order to corrupt the system and find a way to escape The Loop?

Again guys, I never said the Pedestal and Leaf where made by the Loop. That makes no sense. They ARE submachine altered objects, yes, but I'm not sure which submachine altered them. Either Mur reprogrammed a section of the loop to create the pedestal/leaf, or it works more like an app which he installed on the Loop submachine [just by moving it there]. If submachines need subbots to check up on the location, then quite possibly submachines cannot really know what is installed on them anymore than your computer always knows what all is installed on its hard drive. This holds very true in fact with the analogy of the subbots being like googlebots.

Edit: There all edited up. I didn't add all my responses in, and I added a few extra speculations... which I probably shouldn't add to a theory, but oh well.

EDIT 2: So Rooster, I was trying to figure out why you brought up the Dimensional Pathway's theory. Are you saying that my theory is invalid because it is too much like his? I guess I can accept that he was one of the first to suggest that, but only in an extremely early stage, and besides it doesn't effect the integrity of my own theory. So it isn't really a critique.


10 Dec 2012 23:01
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I'm assuming that he was with the Layer 5 guys, and thus with Liz, before they decided to bury him. So it would go something like this: Mur discovers the Core with his Karma Arm. He hangs out with the Layer 5 guys, and every one is happy and interested in his amazing ability and even use it to set up the Knot (or, like I said, learn how to do it from him)... until it is discovered that his Karma Portals disrupt the Submachine's capacity to control the environment and people start dying. Then they first exile him to the Lighthouse, then bury the lighthouse. Badaboom Badabail, now Mur is back to kick their tail. Guess I should put that in the theory too.


(not answering the first sentence for obvious reasons) :P When did you say that the Architects (as you called the "Layer 5 people" - I'll stick to that name until it's Debunked) learned to set up the knot from Mur? Did I miss that? I know you said he helped, I don't if I remember "learn." (from that assumption, the Knot was made with Karma.) The rest is the logical timeline though.

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Ahh... doesn't say it is from Liz. Ok, so I'll edit out out the part that it is from Liz and just quote the note. XP


LOL! Okay :P

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And we know this how? They aren't even mentioned until Sub8... hmmm... so your saying that this note is from Mur's team and they were using them to track each other in the subnet, but that the geotags also just happen to work across layers, and that was what was so confusing to the guys using them? Interesting theory...


I thought that was the logical conclusion - They used Geotags and couldn't find each other, thus they must've only used the Geotags to locate others across (what they thought was) the one-Dimensional plane of the SubNet.

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I assumed the geotags were used by the Layer 5 people to track who is on what Layer and something was wrong with the geotags they were using (If not this, then all of Mur's invading team must have Navigators [or am I using the wrong term there?] to switch between layers with).


But if the Geotags tracked the Layer, why would they be so confused as to why someone would be in the same Geotag but still not in the same vicinity? That's why I came to the conclusion (as I posted above) about Geotags being used for a "one-Dimensional plane," until the discovery of Layers, to which adds more confusion of where the person is and what Layer they are, since Geotags don't seem to track Layers.

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I also figured this because we had never even heard about geotags until we got to sub8. Hm. Oh well, I'll just strike that part out. It's not necessary to the theory and there is next to no evidence what a geotag even is.


Yeah, but it's always good to know :D

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Is that humor? You really didn't tear it up dude.


I didn't mean in a bad sense, I said previously this Theory was great, remember? ;) I'm referring to how Ant said this:

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Although Rooster already has taken up most points that I would've too,


I went through most points you set up, that's what I meant.

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Again guys, I never said the Pedestal and Leaf where made by the Loop. That makes no sense. They ARE submachine altered objects, yes, but I'm not sure which submachine altered them.


That's what was left out, that's the pivotal point (what I italicized) - You didn't specify which Submachine altered them, but from saying the following:

Quote:
Submachines are something like a physics mechanism: a computer like, even AI like, device which is a part of a location and produces local physics distortions. A further likely result is that through physics manipulation a submachine "programs" real objects to serve specific purposes, like a leaf and pedestal being a teleporter [(though they don't appear to be a part of the local submachine)]*(Sub3)


I thought you meant that the Submachine in question, meaning the Loop, "programmed" the Leaf and Pedestal. And now you edited it in brackets :P

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Either Mur reprogrammed a section of the loop to create the pedestal/leaf, or it works more like an app which he installed on the Loop submachine [just by moving it there].


Either thought seems valid, can't really assume much on it though.

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So Rooster, I was trying to figure out why you brought up the Dimensional Pathway's theory. Are you saying that my theory is invalid because it is too much like his?


No, no, not at all! Don't worry! It's always nice to have a new idea on an already-created Theory (even if you didn't know it existed), I'm actually proud that someone updated it! I'm 100% sure -ak- won't mind, there are always authors (in my experience) eager to allow you to take parts from their Theories and expand on them. I would never say that your Theory's invalid because of that, expanding on a Theory is a good thing!

*reads updates - may be more than the one I just found*

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[A further evidence of the programability of submachines might be the repetition of objects (copy and pasted?) like the cushioned chair that appears in Sub2, Sub4, FLF and SNEE. Perhaps copy and paste is part of how a submachine adopts a location.]*


That's a great point. For the millionth time, I might say Game Mechanics, but maybe it's not.


11 Dec 2012 20:04
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When did you say that the Architects (as you called the "Layer 5 people" - I'll stick to that name until it's Debunked) learned to set up the knot from Mur? Did I miss that? I know you said he helped, I don't if I remember "learn." (from that assumption, the Knot was made with Karma.) The rest is the logical timeline though.

Probably they would have learned while he was chummin with Liz. What the date was, I don't know, but prior to scarey bury.
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I thought that was the logical conclusion - They used Geotags and couldn't find each other, thus they must've only used the Geotags to locate others across (what they thought was) the one-Dimensional plane of the SubNet.

Yeah, it's really hard to tell because we don't even know who left the note. I thought it was the Architects that left it, so I just figured that there really was something wrong with the geotags. "Something's off..." Your probably right on that.
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You didn't specify which Submachine altered them, but from saying the following:

I concede the point. XP
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I didn't mean in a bad sense,

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No, no, not at all! Don't worry!

Sorry, sorry. :oops: XD I somehow got the impression you thought you were leveling some devastating criticism and I couldn't figure out what it was. Because you said this maybe:
Quote:
To be honest, I was going to mark this "Still Alive"...until I came across this:

I really have appreciated your continued high quality critiques. :D


12 Dec 2012 02:28
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Probably they would have learned while he was chummin with Liz. What the date was, I don't know, but prior to scarey bury.


Oh, I see...but you said they learned from Mur. Learning from Liz is a possibility, as is learning from Mur, I just wanted to know where you wrote that for my own clarification :P

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Yeah, it's really hard to tell because we don't even know who left the note. I thought it was the Architects that left it, so I just figured that there really was something wrong with the geotags. "Something's off..." Your probably right on that.


Yeah, having the Notes without names (or even initials) doesn't help :P

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Sorry, sorry. XD I somehow got the impression you thought you were leveling some devastating criticism and I couldn't figure out what it was. Because you said this maybe:


Oh! I see...Well, no, it remains at Still Alive for obvious purposes: Can't be Confirmed, can't be Debunked, and it's very possible, but I need a bit more to move it in the "Likely" Direction. However, it's a great Theory - Being Still Alive, or even Doubtful for that matter, doesn't change the greatness of a Theory.

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I really have appreciated your continued high quality critiques


And I appreciate having my critiques noted and held in such high regard :D

If I meant to criticize your Theory, I would have simply done so, I'm not one to use fancy words to hide my meaning and make it sound like it's a terrible Theory XD


14 Dec 2012 22:09
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