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Murtaugh's hunter
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I don't know what you and Ant discussed, but my view on what the 'Extra artwork' page should contain is still the same as when it was created: author-made artwork about Submachine that can't be found in the games.

http://www.pastelland.com/forum/viewtop ... 230#p70988

I don't think we can consistently categorize them into canon/fanart. But I would agree that once an image is turned into a real location in a game, it belongs in the corresponding page and not in 'Extra artwork'.


14 Nov 2018 17:22
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karma portal traveller
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I agree with Vortex.

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14 Nov 2018 19:22
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Vortex wrote:
author-made artwork about Submachine that can't be found in the games.


Well, it seems that we both have differing definitions on both what is "canon" and what is allowed on the Wiki then. (I'm assuming that "that can't be found in the games" is not part of the canon definition, because then none of the game information would be canon, lol)

Your definition is fine, but I'm a bit more specific in mine. I agree it should refer to artwork done solely by the main author, unless the author makes exceptions, that specifically relates to the "official storyline". I don't see the extra artwork not included in the games as canon since they're not part of the lore. This is why I played with the description of what the page is about.

Now, as to whether it should be included on the Wiki, I'm rethinking this a bit. I don't think the Wiki has to be hardbound to just discussing stuff part of the games. Having the artwork done by Mateusz himself definitely plays a role (and helps draw a line between that and, say, theories and walkthroughs).

But I still do have to ask, since you say you're a completion-ist, which I think I am as well, with your definition do you really want to open the door up for literally anything Mat draws that has Submachine in it to be on the Wiki? I brought up some scenarios which I think should be discussed if that's the case.

And for what it's worth, I asked him his opinion on canonicity in Discord. I wonder what kind of answer he'll give. (I have a suspicion of what it might look like)

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16 Nov 2018 02:59
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Well, I actually agree with you that canonical artwork should ideally refer to Submachine's storyline or lore. The problem for me is that I don't see how to draw a clear line between what is lore and what is not. In SubVerse we have rooms that are literally fanarts redrawn in another style, and the game itself is by design a mishmash of fan stuff plus author-made stuff, integrated in such a way that it's sometimes hard to distinguish (for example, I still remember the pre-sub10 discussion about whether the subbot drawings in 100 are canon. For another example, we only know the note in THB is canon because Mateusz told us so). We also have tributes like the rooms based on Prince, Lost or My Little Pony; it's not clear to me whether they should be considered part of the "official story" or just tributes... I think I would go completely crazy if I tried to categorize everything as definitely canon vs. definitely fanart.

Apocryphactor wrote:
But I still do have to ask, since you say you're a completion-ist, which I think I am as well, with your definition do you really want to open the door up for literally anything Mat draws that has Submachine in it to be on the Wiki? I brought up some scenarios which I think should be discussed if that's the case.


For me it's only a problem of manageability. When I made the page there was very little Submachine-styled extra artwork, since Mateusz was very conservative about Submachine (unlike DMT), and a single page was enough to handle all of it. Now there's a lot more content because of livestreams and Patreon rewards. With that in mind, I agree that we should be more restrictive on what is allowed.

Quote:
Is it okay to have developed watercolor pieces that were later turned into locations on the same page as sketches that were later torn up and discarded, or a picture of Blaki looking at a URD and a key? If Mat draws a Patreon reward for someone and doesn't tell us, but they decide to post it to Twitter and someone grabs a screenshot, does that get included too? I feel like a line needs to be drawn somewhere.


As I said above, I agree with you guys that if some watercolor art becomes a location it belongs in the location's page. Crossovers are okay in my opinion, as long as the Submachine part features prominently in them (but we should give priority to Submachine-only pieces). And about the Patreon rewards, well, Mateusz has the last word on that.

Finally, if the amount of content grows past the feasibility limit, we could consider splitting up the page, for example, making a separate 'Livestreams' page.


16 Nov 2018 08:41
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karma portal traveller
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Vortex wrote:
I think I would go completely crazy if I tried to categorize everything as definitely canon vs. definitely fanart.


There is an elegant solution for this, which I'm sure will be a totally popular idea (getting off topic a bit, but it's related):

When SubVerse for Steam comes out, de-canonize the current version (and all previous ones). Mat has said that he plans on taking out theories and user created content and replacing them with puzzles to make it more of an actual game. If he wants to take this to the logical conclusion of "this game will be 100% mine", then the fan rooms and anything that he borrowed from other people should be replaced too.

That solves pretty much any problem with wondering what kind of canon state the game exists in. And the extra advantage to de-canonizing the current version is you avoid the consequences of what happened with, say, FLF. (If it was me, I would have just de-canonized the original FLF game straight out instead of this multi-layer BS)

I don't think more than one page is necessary for extra artwork; we have ways of condensing large amounts of information onto a single page and still making it readable and navigable.

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16 Nov 2018 16:20
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I have messed up the timezone of this forum, but Mateusz wrote as context and I found it very helpfull:''Artwork outside games is not cannon until it ends up in a game.''
I personally think this means the watercolors are not, since they are not in the actual game and the Big Game will have watercolors in it and where is 2012 had to.


16 Nov 2018 17:54
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Apocryphactor wrote:
There is an elegant solution for this, which I'm sure will be a totally popular idea (getting off topic a bit, but it's related):

When SubVerse for Steam comes out, de-canonize the current version (and all previous ones).

Seems reasonable to me, why do you think this won't be popular? Or that wasn't sarcasm?

Ko9 wrote:
I have messed up the timezone of this forum, but Mateusz wrote as context and I found it very helpfull:''Artwork outside games is not cannon until it ends up in a game.''
I personally think this means the watercolors are not, since they are not in the actual game and the Big Game will have watercolors in it and where is 2012 had to.

That settles things then :) where did he say it, Discord?

EDIT: found it.


16 Nov 2018 19:04
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To those of us not on his Discord, a verifying screencap would not go amiss.

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16 Nov 2018 20:34
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Here it is:

Attachment:
capy.png
capy.png [ 10.55 KiB | Viewed 373 times ]


16 Nov 2018 21:13
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karma portal traveller
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Vortex wrote:
Seems reasonable to me, why do you think this won't be popular? Or that wasn't sarcasm?


I mean, not sure it will be popular with the one person where it most matters :P

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17 Nov 2018 15:42
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