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But where would the awareness come from? Surroundings?

Well I was referring to the awareness of the mind. We can suppose it is an emergent property of the mind... but it really is an odd idea that matter when organized a certain way becomes aware of itself. I've heard of scientists that just concluded that all mater must somehow be aware because of how strange an idea it is that it would just emerge. So, in the context of this discussion, what if what we mean by wisdom, or even karma perhaps, is a unique force that creates awareness? Wisdom, as I understand it, means the skilled use of knowledge. An awareness has an advantage over any computer we have thus far made in that it is not simply processing through a database, but rather we are aware of the process of thinking and can make intuitive and creative leaps. What if that has something to do with this wisdom energy?

A whole lot of speculation going on! XD
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EXACTLY MY POINT XD The Theory wasn't intended to show how Wisdom Energy works, but merely that it exists, in order to explain why we put the Navigator on our head...

Ah... ok, fine. XD Is that the mistake I made, according to Ancient Crystal???

But that last statement... "why we put the Navigator on our head..." I don't know if I missed reading a statement like that before, or just didn't fully get the implications, but that IS an interesting conclusion.
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Karma Arms defy the Laws of Physics...See my point?

Maybe, but by using that example you've also pointed out that Mur must have had the Karma arm BEFORE he got into the subnet. So what is up with that?


21 Dec 2012 23:55
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Could you elaborate? More on "form" - What "form" did the energy take that was "radically different" than before? (in your suggestion)

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However, Karma is a "force," in the sense of that word - From what we understand, it's an energy. Elaborate on "foundation" then. I take "foundation" to mean the starting base for anything. So, in your suggestion, Karma was only the groundwork for the destruction it created, though not exactly creating that force itself?

Perhaps I meade a bad choice of words. Forget all about "foundation" and "form". I simply meant that it might be where it's supposed to be, and do what it's supposed to do, simply in the wrong way, and thats the problem. I'll reuse my ocean example from "speculation on karma and teleports". They are supposed to be where thay are, but if they would start to, for example, boil, then all life on the planet would be lost rather soon. You could try a far less radical example, but you get my point, I hope.

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And please, if I'm mistaken, don't condescend, we're trying to have a discussion. I hate it when I'm told blatantly that I "don't understand," it'll make things much better.

I know what you mean. I try to stick to that as much as possible.

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But where would the awareness come from? Surroundings?

Is that even the question? (I'm unsure myself)

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Well I was referring to the awareness of the mind. We can suppose it is an emergent property of the mind... but it really is an odd idea that matter when organized a certain way becomes aware of itself. I've heard of scientists that just concluded that all mater must somehow be aware because of how strange an idea it is that it would just emerge. So, in the context of this discussion, what if what we mean by wisdom, or even karma perhaps, is a unique force that creates awareness? Wisdom, as I understand it, means the skilled use of knowledge. An awareness has an advantage over any computer we have thus far made in that it is not simply processing through a database, but rather we are aware of the process of thinking and can make intuitive and creative leaps. What if that has something to do with this wisdom energy?

Well said, I was thinking along a similar line, but the other way around.

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EXACTLY MY POINT XD The Theory wasn't intended to show how Wisdom Energy works, but merely that it exists, in order to explain why we put the Navigator on our head...

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I hate to break it to you, but that's not what this Theory's about As much as I'd love to tell you how "Wisdom Energy" works, it would be adding more assumption to an already sketchy-looking Theory.

Too bad.

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It's almost a fact that the SubNet makes its own Laws of Physics. Karma Arms defy the Laws of Physics...See my point?

Yes and no. The submachine "canon" has it's own physics, but the net itself, or the karma arm, can't defy nor change them. If they were possible to defy, they wouldn't count as physical laws anymore. And I didn't say we should stick within real world physics, simply whatever physics we decide exist.

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It seems you're somewhat still debating this point with Vortex, but that's sort of what I was going on. I didn't have an explanation for the full understanding of Wisdom being an energy - just as how we don't know how Karma can be an energy, though it seems to be one. I was just throwing it out there, but you can elaborate on it as you wish, I have no problem with that.

Seems you missread that just as I did.

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If you mean in our world, then there's already a physical description of wisdom/knowledge and how it is transferred, through information theory. Information quantity is measured in terms of the Shannon entropy, which is not an energy, and is unrelated to it by any direct means.


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Sure you didn't make the same misstake as Redafro did?


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What mistake did I make? Is there anything I said wrong? :/

I said that knowledge can be interpreted in a physical way. I was agreeing with you in that. Or did you mean another thing?

And it's also true that there are no direct relation between energy and knowledge, as physicists interpret it now.


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Oh, you were agreeing with me... sorry. And yes, there is no such relation between "physical" knowledge and energy. I've been talking about conscious knowledge/wisdom, or rather, whatever effect a more developed conscious mind has on the physical reality. (As I intend to keep this whithin the bounds of the laws of physics, or at least those we write)


I hope it makes more sense now.

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But we don't even know how karma works. And keep in mind that the basic concept of relocation doesn't require energy.

True, we don't know, but that's why we are theorizing, not?

This. Just because we don't know how it works shouldn't stop us from reaching the conclusion that it is an energy.


All I meant was that you seemed to assume that karma was essentially a "relocation energy", only being capable of transporting matter. And that it should require more energy/distance also was kind of out of the blue

These post are beginnning to get disturbingly long.

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22 Dec 2012 00:05
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Stupid question: What do you mean by "type" (or I may have misunderstood) of energy? Like Heat Energy?

Yeah. We have potential energy, kinetic energy, heat, etc. so why not karma energy? :P

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EXACTLY MY POINT XD The Theory wasn't intended to show how Wisdom Energy works, but merely that it exists, in order to explain why we put the Navigator on our head...

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This. Just because we don't know how it works shouldn't stop us from reaching the conclusion that it is an energy.

On the issue of staying within the bounds of the Laws of Physics: It's almost a fact that the SubNet makes its own Laws of Physics. Karma Arms defy the Laws of Physics...See my point?

Indeed, we don't have to come with an elaborated description of everything, because we don't really know how the laws of the subnet work.

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Edit: I don't know about you guys deviating from the discussion, more than my brain trying to figure out the correlations here...XD

I'm not trying to be mean, but that whole discussion's for a different topic

heh, thought so :P

Well, apart from the energy issue, I find it an interesting theory, and something that could support it is that the wisdom gems and the energy gem we have seen in Sub7, since they are nearly identical, could be two names for the same thing. There would still be few evidence, though, and the point that everyone should have karma powers is a potential flaw too, so my vote would be maybe between still alive/doubtful.

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These post are beginnning to get disturbingly long.

Lol, check the Sub9 discussion and the theories threads. I can't follow some discussions already, Redafro and Rooster are on a roll of posting :P


22 Dec 2012 00:11
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Well I was referring to the awareness of the mind. We can suppose it is an emergent property of the mind... but it really is an odd idea that matter when organized a certain way becomes aware of itself. I've heard of scientists that just concluded that all mater must somehow be aware because of how strange an idea it is that it would just emerge.


Interesting, I've never heard that (being I haven't delved myself that far into Physics XD).

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So, in the context of this discussion, what if what we mean by wisdom, or even karma perhaps, is a unique force that creates awareness? Wisdom, as I understand it, means the skilled use of knowledge. An awareness has an advantage over any computer we have thus far made in that it is not simply processing through a database, but rather we are aware of the process of thinking and can make intuitive and creative leaps. What if that has something to do with this wisdom energy?


The first sentence had me thinking that Wisdom and/or Karma could create awareness (being from that idea that "matter is aware of itself"), so then about the Computer: Are you saying that Wisdom Energy, in this context, has an advantage over the AI? Or I'm completely confused...

OH WAIT! "intuitive and creative leaps" - The Wisdom Energy's presence is why we can solve elaborate puzzles! Right? Being we may be so exposed to this Energy, thus the benefit of coming out the SubNet.

From that presumption, the SubNet's AI could be trying to trap us in an attempt to kill us, but the Wisdom Energy helps us get past these obstacles in some sort of Deus Ex Machina...? Meh, I liked where it was going though XD

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Ah... ok, fine. XD Is that the mistake I made, according to Ancient Crystal???


I thought the "mistake" was your confusion over his mentioning of the study and what Wisdom Energy has to do with the brain, thus him saying it's because of "awareness."

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But that last statement... "why we put the Navigator on our head..." I don't know if I missed reading a statement like that before, or just didn't fully get the implications, but that IS an interesting conclusion.


LOL, read the Theory title! That's the reason I made it - Hasn't it been a pressing thought to everybody how we put the Navigator on our heads, if Submachine is indeed real?! The assumption made is we put it on our heads in an Inception-type deal where we're entering the Layers through our head by going, for lack of a better term, "further down the rabbit hole."

Being it's all real, what other conclusions can we make to why it's connected to our head?

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Maybe, but by using that example you've also pointed out that Mur must have had the Karma arm BEFORE he got into the subnet. So what is up with that?


We don't know if we indeed have the full story on how Mur got his Karma Arm, or if it was forged - "Oh, look at me, I got a Karma Arm out of nowhere." What if Mur knew the diary note would be read by others, thus skipping details to avoid "explaining Physics to a goldfish" (or however that saying went)?

If he got his Karma Arm before entering the SubNet, then the next Theory I was about to propose is screwed...XD

Edit: Oh my Sub-lord, two more posts...Hold the phone....

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Yeah. We have potential energy, kinetic energy, heat, etc. so why not karma energy?


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But what kind of energy it is, that's a very different issue.


I see now :P

Geez, let me edit, then post...I guess that's what I deserve for posting so much XD

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Indeed, we don't have to come with an elaborated description of everything, because we don't really know how the laws of the subnet work.


You're reading my mind, and yet now I have all these posts to go through XD

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Perhaps I meade a bad choice of words. Forget all about "foundation" and "form". I simply meant that it might be where it's supposed to be, and do what it's supposed to do, simply in the wrong way, and thats the problem. I'll reuse my ocean example from "speculation on karma and teleports". They are supposed to be where thay are, but if they would start to, for example, boil, then all life on the planet would be lost rather soon. You could try a far less radical example, but you get my point, I hope.


I think I understand - Karma is passive, it's only doing the job it was "born" to do?

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Is that even the question? (I'm unsure myself)


RedAfro answered that, so don't worry.

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Yes and no. The submachine "canon" has it's own physics, but the net itself, or the karma arm, can't defy nor change them. If they were possible to defy, they wouldn't count as physical laws anymore. And I didn't say we should stick within real world physics, simply whatever physics we decide exist.


Well, you and Vortex started jumping into real-world Physics, so I didn't know what to make of it...XD

And that's what I meant by "Laws" - Not exactly that it has Laws, but that they're a seperate set of Physics than what we know. Thank you for allowing me to clarify for any potential confusion.

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I hope it makes more sense now.


I'm still not sure what you're referring to actually...I see the quotes, but could you summarize your point?

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All I meant was that you seemed to assume that karma was essentially a "relocation energy", only being capable of transporting matter.


You're referring to Vortex, right? I didn't even touch on that, as far as I'm aware XD

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Well, apart from the energy issue, I find it an interesting theory, and something that could support it is that the wisdom gems and the energy gem we have seen in Sub7, since they are nearly identical, could be two names for the same thing. There would still be few evidence, though, and the point that everyone should have karma powers is a potential flaw too, so my vote would be maybe between still alive/doubtful.


Yeah, that's fine, thank you! I wasn't looking for Likely, a "Still Alive" will do :D


22 Dec 2012 00:15
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I think I understand - Karma is passive, it's only doing the job it was "born" to do?

But does it wrong, due to all of Mur's messing around, and that's the problem.

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Yes and no. The submachine "canon" has it's own physics, but the net itself, or the karma arm, can't defy nor change them. If they were possible to defy, they wouldn't count as physical laws anymore. And I didn't say we should stick within real world physics, simply whatever physics we decide exist.



Well, you and Vortex started jumping into real-world Physics, so I didn't know what to make of it...XD

And that's what I meant by "Laws" - Not exactly that it has Laws, but that they're a seperate set of Physics than what we know. Thank you for allowing me to clarify for any potential confusion.


The submachine canon laws aren't different, just extended.


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I hope it makes more sense now.

I'm still not sure what you're referring to actually...I see the quotes, but could you summarize your point?

Basically, he only said he agreed, but we missinterpretated it as some sort of counterargument.

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All I meant was that you seemed to assume that karma was essentially a "relocation energy", only being capable of transporting matter.

You're referring to Vortex, right? I didn't even touch on that, as far as I'm aware XD

Yes.

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22 Dec 2012 01:58
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I think I understand - Karma is passive, it's only doing the job it was "born" to do?


But does it wrong, due to all of Mur's messing around, and that's the problem.


So you believe Mur tampered with Karma and thus made it a destructive force because he tampered with it? Plausible, interesting.

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The submachine canon laws aren't different, just extended.


However, as you said yourself with:

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The submachine "canon" has it's own physics


Wouldn't that mean there's a seperate version - being we're unsure if there's actual "Laws" of Physics in the canon - of Physics? That's what I believe it to be, at least. It's possible, as you said, that the Laws are extended, but it seems that there's a change in our grasp of Physics in the canon - Just take a look at how Karma's destroying the SubNet.

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he only said he agreed, but we missinterpretated it as some sort of counterargument.


I understood you agreed, but upon mentioning that, it seemed you continued to debate.


22 Dec 2012 03:32
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So you believe Mur tampered with Karma and thus made it a destructive force because he tampered with it? Plausible, interesting.

Something like that. It may also be that he didn't make karma destructive, but rather unable to protect the subnet from something.(Natural decay, perhaps?) But I'm still just speculating, not claimging anything.

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The submachine canon laws aren't different, just extended.

However, as you said yourself with:
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The submachine "canon" has it's own physics

Wouldn't that mean there's a seperate version - being we're unsure if there's actual "Laws" of Physics in the canon - of Physics? That's what I believe it to be, at least. It's possible, as you said, that the Laws are extended, but it seems that there's a change in our grasp of Physics in the canon - Just take a look at how Karma's destroying the SubNet.

I just meant that there is nothong to prove "our" laws don't apply there. There may just be a few others, that have yet to be discovered in the real world.

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he only said he agreed, but we missinterpretated it as some sort of counterargument.

I understood you agreed, but upon mentioning that, it seemed you continued to debate.

My misstake. This thread is getting more and more confused.

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22 Dec 2012 10:23
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Something like that. It may also be that he didn't make karma destructive, but rather unable to protect the subnet from something.(Natural decay, perhaps?) But I'm still just speculating, not claimging anything.


Oh, okay, then I guess we don't have to further delve into that :P

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I just meant that there is nothong to prove "our" laws don't apply there. There may just be a few others, that have yet to be discovered in the real world.


True, I thought of that - How some Laws may exist that we've yet to discover. However, there's nothing to prove for or against the Theories we've proposed so far either.

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My misstake. This thread is getting more and more confused.


Indeed.


22 Dec 2012 21:23
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The first sentence had me thinking that Wisdom and/or Karma could create awareness (being from that idea that "matter is aware of itself"), so then about the Computer: Are you saying that Wisdom Energy, in this context, has an advantage over the AI? Or I'm completely confused...

I wasn't referring to the computer from the series, but just computers in general. Perhaps the AI computer uses wisdom energy?
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OH WAIT! "intuitive and creative leaps" - The Wisdom Energy's presence is why we can solve elaborate puzzles! Right? Being we may be so exposed to this Energy, thus the benefit of coming out the SubNet.

There may be something to that. Understand, if wisdom energy does have something to do with human awareness, then it is not just a property within the subnet, but rather one that perhaps has MORE properties in the subnet, as ancient crystal was saying. Perhaps, however, there is a relationship between the puzzles and the submachines wishing to harvest wisdom energy from humans. I don't know if I buy that as plausible though, just possible.
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I thought the "mistake" was your confusion over his mentioning of the study and what Wisdom Energy has to do with the brain, thus him saying it's because of "awareness."

Maybe... I'm not sure.
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LOL, read the Theory title! That's the reason I made it - Hasn't it been a pressing thought to everybody how we put the Navigator on our heads, if Submachine is indeed real?! The assumption made is we put it on our heads in an Inception-type deal where we're entering the Layers through our head by going, for lack of a better term, "further down the rabbit hole."

I never saw it as a VR type of thing, but just figured that was how the thing insured that we shifted layers. But I do like the idea that it is somehow drawing on an energy source within us.
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We don't know if we indeed have the full story on how Mur got his Karma Arm, or if it was forged - "Oh, look at me, I got a Karma Arm out of nowhere." What if Mur knew the diary note would be read by others, thus skipping details to avoid "explaining Physics to a goldfish" (or however that saying went)?

I kinda tend to think whatever kind of portal energy karma is, it is either incompatible with the subnet environment, or else, as perhaps ancient crystal is suggesting (if I understand him right) Mur is just not using karma in a way that is compatible with the subnet. As for the notes, I'm just not ready to start tossing notes out as blatant deceptions. I wouldn't know when to stop doing that and I don't think there is any precedents for it.
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The submachine canon laws aren't different, just extended.

That seems a plausible scenario. The laws over karma/wisdom may exist in our world, just have greater effect in the subnet.


23 Dec 2012 05:52
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There may be something to that. Understand, if wisdom energy does have something to do with human awareness, then it is not just a property within the subnet, but rather one that perhaps has MORE properties in the subnet, as ancient crystal was saying. Perhaps, however, there is a relationship between the puzzles and the submachines wishing to harvest wisdom energy from humans. I don't know if I buy that as plausible though, just possible.

I like that idea, it may be an explanation of the existence of puzzles.

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That seems a plausible scenario. The laws over karma/wisdom may exist in our world, just have greater effect in the subnet.

Well, that looks a little far-fetched, luckily we don't have karma portals destroying our reality. But Mateusz would become famous if he showed in a game a thing that we were to discover later :P


23 Dec 2012 11:00
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