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[begin transcript]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ztaYoJRTo0UW4D4o0KP4NDREQlOCn6kiyUa1Ux-nzbc/edit?usp=sharing

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22 Mar 2018 15:54
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I am back I think...
Attachment:
File comment: Discord Discourse Discussing Submachine's Lab Portals on Discord
XYZ Theory.PNG
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Also, I do believe that even if you reversed the numbers in the x & z coordinates, you would not change the output of the counter-example. It still disproves the XYZ thought.

HOWEVER, I do not have any replacement mechanic for the Lab Portals.

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15 Jul 2018 19:51
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"XYZ physical coordinates don't make sense" seems to be correct. I think for this reason people have tried to avoid pairing the XYZ coordinates with a physical Euclidean grid. I believe the Wiki also tries to avoid this assumption though I don't remember that much.

It should be pointed out that the conglomerate Root map actually does contain locations arranged in a 3D-screened space, but the locations with screens extending on the Z axis have been flattened. 552 + (2,0) is an example, though again this isn't specifically an XYZ coordinate.


17 Jul 2018 02:38
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How exciting!

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18 Jul 2018 00:14
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I will get straight to the point here: The player traverses in the third layer for at least Submachine 2 through up to and (maybe) including Submachine 7.

The initial proof can be found in Submachine 9. Near the end of the game, the player has to go into layer 3 to revisit the mover used previously in Submachine 5. Within the mover, they find the three wisdom gems that had been previously used to power the mover until it was intercepted in Submachine 6.
Attachment:
File comment: The mover in Submachine 9 while in Layer 3. Notice the deformed look thanks to the karma portal (digression)
Mover_Layer_3.PNG
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However, if the player changes layers while in the mover, it disappears, and the wisdom gems with it.
Attachment:
File comment: The Mover while in Layer 2. Notice that it doesn't exist. This holds true for all layers other than layer three
Mover_Layer_2.PNG
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Although I have the wisdom gems in my gameplay, I would have not been able to grab them if I went to layer two beforehand because the mover is not there.

Backtracking to Submachine 5, which is where we find the three wisdom gems needed to power the mover: We find one of the three wisdom gems in location (2, 0) of the root in the... lighthouse dungeons. Is it just me or is that the exact same wisdom gem from Submachine 2? Before we confirm that Submachine 5 is layer 3 as well, we have one conflict: The Lab Portal. Although we are (fairly) certain that it is not based on a euclidean xyz pattern, we are uncertain as to whether it can teleport humans transdimensionally. This needs to be false in order to continue.

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07 Jun 2019 23:35
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For us to be able to discern that a lab portal does not transport players through layers, we need two views of the same location. In this case, we need to analyze two of each of the following locations (as they are the most relevant in supporting the claim):

1. 747
2. 552

Let's start with 747. For reference, I will be using the two maps found at https://submachine.fandom.com/wiki/Corridor. In Submachine 5, we use the mover that can be found in the corridor. However, it is intercepted in Submachine 6, and we don't see it go anywhere else. Based on the deformities in Submachine 9, we can see that the mover is still in the void. That means that the streaks on the Submachine Universe picture were made by the mover. We were unable to see them because we were in the mover at the time they were created.

552 is next. Ref: https://submachine.fandom.com/wiki/Root_baseThe power is off. However, the device that had supplied the power in Submachine 5 is still plugged in. To explain this, look back to Submachine 10 Tile Room D. That room is the Root Generator. It had been damaged by Murtaugh, and was currently being healed by 5 karmic veins:
Attachment:
File comment: The generator being healed by 5 karmic veins
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Letter to Murtaugh wrote:
"Did you see the power generator in the oldest sections of the root? The one destroyed by your portal long time ago? Now it's being rebuilt by five karmic veins."

Because the generator was out of commission, not all sections of the root were powered, hence why the Root Base is dark in Submachine Universe.
The next piece of information in 552 that has to be explained is the difference in void color. We don't have to analyse it because it has already been done for us. In 2013, a forum user explained why the void is different in Subverse and Sub 5:
Attachment:
File comment: Credit: read the freaking image
Sub-5_Void_Color_explanation.PNG
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Why did we have to confirm that the lab portal doesn't take us through layers? Remember, to get to the corridor, you have to use the lab portal to go from 552 to 747. One example of the change in location is not enough to constitute that you are staying on the same layer. Anyway, now we know that we don't change layers. That means we grab the wisdom gem from Sub 5 in layer 3. Because this wisdom gem is unidimensional (as seen when we go to the mover in Submachine 9), that means that to receive it from Layer 3 in Submachine 5, we would have had to place it in Layer 3 for Submachine 2.

You all might be asking about Submachine 1 now and whether that is on Layer 3 or not. I cannot confirm or deny that. Remember the picture I showed you in the first part of this post? The one where I was in layer 2 holding the wisdom gems. That reveals something else: whatever you are carrying on you at the time you shift layers also shifts layers. Canonically, we are supposed to carry the wisdom gem on us as we exit Submachine 1, and we enter a karma portal to make it to Submachine 2. We know that karma portals have the ability to send the player through the layers, so we only know that we end up in layer 3 by the end of it. Our starting layer in Submachine 1 is unknown.

That's it! :D Time to fix the wiki

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08 Jun 2019 01:24
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The first post seems good. I can't think of anything that is glaringly obvious; it's pretty clear that the mover can't exist in any other layer, and we know that it's the same mover from Sub6 from a previous confirmation.

Regarding the second post: lab portals being uni-dimensional is a solid piece to satisfy the theory, yes. (Which has been elaborated on by people for a while, before you came along. Again, it's the thing with blue and green portals and layer properties and whatnot)

Quote:
For us to be able to discern that a lab portal does not transport players through layers, we need two views of the same location.


I do not immediately see why, but let's see.

Quote:
In Submachine 5, we use the mover that can be found in the corridor. However, it is intercepted in Submachine 6, and we don't see it go anywhere else. Based on the deformities in Submachine 9, we can see that the mover is still in the void.


Note: I'm 95% certain it's been confirmed that even though the SubVerse and Sub5 747 maps have different room layouts, they are the same physical location. Mat added an extra room to SubVerse for some reason that I can't recall.

Should point out, just because we don't see it go anywhere else doesn't mean that it didn't. We can't even really tell if the mover was standing still or moving backwards in Sub6's intro because there's literally no reference to compare it to, lol. But the conclusion is that it's in the void somewhere, that's fine. It could have stayed there, or have been on the way back to 747, or maybe on its way somewhere else for inspection.

Which brings up a question: why does the maintenance system have a protocol where an unscheduled movement necessitates a point of contact that brings the mover directly to the Defense System, instead of, idk, anywhere that's not what might be on its way to being attacked by whatever's inside an unruly mover? Is there no way for the DS to forcibly reverse the mover back to its starting point, or do something else to intercept and actually deal with it outside the DS rather than bringing whatever's inside to the DS automatically? Seems weird.

Quote:
That means that the streaks on the Submachine Universe picture were made by the mover. We were unable to see them because we were in the mover at the time they were created.


No, this does not follow. The absence of the mover revealing streaks in its spot does not mean the mover made those streaks. It can reasonably be assumed that the mover made those streaks simply because nothing else would probably do that, but not specifically because "the mover was in the void".

Unfortunately there's nothing else that you give from 747 that shows that the portal acts on one layer. Were you trying to go for something that shows "both maps appear to be part of the same layer --> the portal hasn't changed layers --> the portal doesn't change layers during transport"? Because that in itself has a whole lot wrong with it. I just don't see the evidence you said this would show.

Your stuff for 552 seems like it might go down a specific path that I can't figure out, so going to voice and later posting the results might be the best option for now.


09 Jun 2019 02:03
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Jatsko wrote:
Were you trying to go for something that shows "both maps appear to be part of the same layer --> the portal hasn't changed layers --> the portal doesn't change layers during transport"? Because that in itself has a whole lot wrong with it.
I am now in full agreement with this statement. I relearned that the knots exists, and therefore we can't make the assumption that all the locations I am studying are outside of it because we don't know the region of them. (More on that later)

Now let's look back on the oral discussion that me and Jatsko had after he made this post. The first thig we talked about was, surprisingly, 550, but during that discussion, we agreed on one thing: The placement of the wisdom gem in Submachine 2 and the retrieval of it in Submachine 5 was a unique action that could have only happened on that layer. This is an instance of what I am going to refer to as "The Cause-Effect Proof" and it will be the main proof that I try to use for certain locations within the Subnet.

A couple posts ago, we made the claim that Submachine 2 through Submachine 7 all take place in the third layer. We got as far as connecting Submachine 2 and location 552 of Submachine 5 to the same layer and connecting location 747 of Submachine 5 and the Mover to the same layer, but we never connected the separate examples because of the lab portals.

As mentioned in the previous post (and in the title of this post), the only way to prove the connection between these two instances is to prove the unidimensionality of lab portals, leading to a side-claim.

I have spent a couple of days reviewing why my previous mindset was wrong, and now I am going to lay down the process I used to gain the results that I have found.

To begin with, I decided to look beyond the two instances that were the main focus of the L3 theory and compiled a list of locations which were reached by a lab portal in 2 instances (ground rule #1). The resulting conglomerate was:

001
043
104
291
452
462
529
551
552
690
728
747
770
800

From there, I started to analyze, but I hit a roadblock in my discoveries when I took a look at a few locations together (namely 043, 104, and 452). The puzzles for the given locations were NOT SOLVED, but the statue was FIXED. At this point, I called Submachine Universe a convolution of time, and the only explanation I had was that locations were not regularly updated by Mateusz to satisfy the current point in time reflected by new locations. When I told Sublevel 108 about the convolution, I also asked him if he could provide me with maps of Subnet Locations from old updates. He one-upped my request and sent me a 45-video playlist showing updates 1.0.0 (1-43), 2.2.1 (44), and 2.3.0 (45). The playlist in question can be found https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3D20D1488F87F034 I watched only a select few videos, as not all of them were important in the theorizing (the videos were 42, 43, 44, and 45). I decided to separate the games based on the updates that they first appeared in and analyze each update separately (ground rule #2). I also used the videos to determine the timing of each updated compared to the main series*. Upon the separation, I came up with the following 2 lists.

*note: Timing is based on in-game. I know that these first few versions were all released between Sub 6 and Sub 7.

V1.0.0 (June 8, 2010) (Takes place Before Submachine 4)
001
043
104
291
747
770

V2.2.1 (June 24, 2010) (Takes place between the end of Submachine 5 and the beginning of Submachine 7)
452
462
529
551
552
690
728
800

After the lists were made, I made two more ground rules:

Clues and Theories will be considered as irrelevant additions, as the purpose of SNEE was to be a game for the fans (partly by the fans). Therefore, additions such as clues and theories were for the fans to utilize and not analyze.
Cause-Effect proof must be used, as it resembles a unique action that only took place in that layer.

I finally continued analyzing using the cause-effect proof, and I came to the following conclusions:

Proved Locations

552
In Submachine 5, most of the main gameplay occurs in 552. During the beginning of traversing 552, the player can go behind the lab portal, find a pedestal, and grab the secret on top. Afterwards, the player goes into the root through a small opening through which a cord runs (he picks up a brass sphere on the way, although irrelevant). Then, they restore power to the root by removing the power cord from an unidentified canister and plugging it into the root power system. From there, the player can explore the rest of the root and complete the task they were assigned. In Submachine Universe, the player can return to the secret pedestal, but the secret will not be there. The player can also traverse part of the Root Base, but they will not be able to go far because the power ran out even though the cord is still plugged into the system.
The unique actions in this scenario are the retrieval of the secret (causing the secret to not exist in subverse) and the restoration of power to the root (the action taken is still visible, but its effects are not).

462
In Submachine 4, we turn off the water flow in 551 and go back to 462 and use the hammer to remove the lock off of the hatch. Upon opening the hatch, we can receive the turbine. In addition, when we ring all four bells with the symbols on their pedestal (001, 043, 104, 800), a panel with the same symbol opens up in 462 allowing us to obtain a secret. In Submachine Universe, the switch in 551 is broken causing the water to resume flowing. Because the hatch has remained open, the water has started to flow out of the pipes. In addition, the water has flowed into where the secret was located because the panel remained open.
In this scenario, the effect of us opening the hatch was the spewing of water within the location. This is not enough evidence to prove the unidimensionality of 551 because the only action we took regarding the water flow was stopping it; we never broke the buttons. However, this is enough evidence to prove the unidimensionality of 462.

690
In Submachine 4, we have a puzzle that takes place in these looping rooms. The player has to activate 4 switches using a device in (-1, 0) of the 3*3 looping space. Then, the player goes to (-1, 1) to remove a glass panel that blocks an orb. In Submachine Universe, although the puzzle is powered off, it is obvious that someone had completed it because the switches are in the "on" position, and even though the glass panel is laying aside from the container, there is no orb to be found. The example speaks for itself.

800
In Submachine 4, 800 is one of the last places the player visits. They use the screwdriver to unlatch a panel from the ship wall, and they use a knife to cut a wire which releases a ladder. In Submachine Universe, the changes made from Submachine 4 are still there with the only difference being that the ladder was removed from the pipe and laid on the floor, so the top of the ship cannot be explored. The example still speaks for itself.

452
Although this one is the easiest to explain away, it does not make it the best example (those are at the top). Basically, in Sub 4, you just complete the game in its entirety because rebuilding the statue was the end-goal. In Submachine Universe, the statue is built. The actions we took in Submachine 4 caused Submachine Universe 452 to look as it does.

728
This is also easily explained. The player hunts for 21 secrets in Submachine 4 that allow the gates in 728 to be opened. In Submacine Universe, they are still opened.

Unproved Locations

043, 104, 747, 770
It is sad to say, but these location were ones that stumped me when using this proof because all of their Submachine Universe counterparts showed times before we even explored them in the main series. Because of this, the only comparisons that could be made were architecturally, but that isn't considered enough evidence to be a proof because of the existence of the Knot. The Knot is a location in the Core in which all layers of the Subnet coincide; they exist in tandem in (approximately) the same fashion. Because we did not have confirmation of the regions in which these areas were located, we were unsure as to whether they were Outer Rim mutations or parts to the Knot. Therefore, an architectural comparison could not be used.

001
This particular location was almost in the same pickle as the ones listed above, but I noticed one flaw within the location when I looked at video #43 in the playlist: the gate to the lab portal was opened even though the location should have taken place before Submachine 4. Because of this, I started to assume that this location took place sometime after Submachine 4, but I needed a new update to tie it to. This is where video #45 came into play; it showed Update 2.3.0 which included location 277: The Radio Lab. In this location, the player could find a laboratory key which is used on the lab door in 001 to gain access to more of the location. I immediately tied the location to the update, and it almost turned out a success. almost. When I moved 001 to after Submachine 5, I forgot one important detail: we had opened the door using a gold key in Submachine 4 and used the acidoxide on the lock mechanism to override the gate and reach the lab portal. In Submachine Universe, we see no unlocked door or affected mechanism. The problem with this location was much grander than the four listed above, and I am ashamed that I didn't see it sooner.

551, 529
These two locations are one in the same, and I will explain why. For 551, we use the buttons to stop the flow in Submachine 4, and they are broken in Submachine Universe. For 529 in Submachine 4, we use the coil to power up the light beam. Then, we use a CD from the lab to somehow reflect the condensed light to a podium on which we put the orb from 690 on and heat up to retrieve a key that we use in 800. In Submachine Universe, the power is off, and there is no evidence that the location had been used (not CD nor orb fragments). In both instances, the player performs actions in one instance of the location that don't have an effect on how the location turns out in another instance. Because the player's actions have no effect, we cannot confirm the lab portal's unidimensionality in these locations.

291
I have a fucking nerve to pick with this one. Remember in the beginning when I assumed that 291 was part of update 1.0.0? That opens up a HUGE CAN OF WORMS When Submachine 7 released 6 months after the release of Subverse 1.0, we arrive at Submachine 7 using.... an edge portal! If I were to explain this location with Subverse coming first, not only would I have to explain how the lab portal was unreverse-engineered, but I would also not come close to finding anything because the player did not cause the things that were part of the invasion to exist; Murtaugh caused it. I had no other option but to abandon this location, but hold on a minute, wasn't this a subverse before the invasion? There was another update some, I don't know, 2 YEARS AFTER THE RELEASE OF SUBMACHINE 7 WHICH FINALLY FIXED UP 291 AND MADE IT REFLECT THE SUBNET POST SUB 7?! So I decided to use that version only. It fixed the edge portal to lab portal situation, but upon looking at the locations, it appeared to me that the evidence of an invasion ever happening was erased... so that removes the right side of the sanctuary from analysis. I guess I can just go the left side to see the portal door that I made back in Submachine 7. Oh wait, I can't. THEY FUCKING BLOCKED THE BIG HOLE IN THE WALL! This location had so much potential of being a huge example. I blame Murtaugh for this.

So those are all the results: 6 proven examples and 8 unproven examples. I don't know how that looks in your eyes, but it seems to me that it is enough information. If it isn't, I am stumped on how to continue this, so I'll probably be passing the torch along to someone or working with someone for the remainder of the creation of this theory. I just really want this point to be proven because it would allow for So much more confirmations within the Subnet. Basically, if the lab portals were unidimensional, it wouldn't just mean that our time from Sub 2 to Sub 7 was in the third layer, but it would mean a plethora of other things. One example would be the multidimensionality of karma portals (or at least some more physical evidence of it) when we go from 552 to KAR or from 966 to WIQ. Maybe this has applications that I haven't even thought of yet! The big picture is that this would be a game-changing theory, but theories like that involve a lot of work. This is only a fraction of it.

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Last edited by Sundex on 11 Jun 2019 14:38, edited 1 time in total.



11 Jun 2019 02:13
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YES, I AM POSTING AGAIN INSTEAD OF TAKING A DAY TO LET THE INFORMATION SINK IN, BUT THIS IS EXCITING NEWS!!!

I was talking to a friend on Discord (Argonbolt) who had been theorizing for a while (he has a location in Subverse). I told him about the main claim and the side claim that I had been trying to prove. This was his response:
Attachment:
File comment: Argonbolt has done a big favor in my mind.
ULTIMATE_PROOF.PNG
ULTIMATE_PROOF.PNG [ 89.94 KiB | Viewed 241 times ]


Tell me this doesn't prove the claim and I'll direct you to the person himself. :P

But anyway, I think that the notes he is referring to regarding this are:
Layers and Focus wrote:
To be back in only one layer, Murtaugh had to lose his focus. After he focused his mind back on the structure of the plan, his exploration teams didn't understand what happened.

Like Drawings on Paper wrote:
Remember, we're one-dimensional.


With the 1st note applying the unidimensionality of others in the Subnet, stated by note 2, by stating that Murtaugh, a multidimensional being, could not focus on them. He used that logic to claim the unidimensionality of normal people in the Subnet, then took it one step further and said that they could only create unidimensional portals (such as the lab portal)

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11 Jun 2019 03:29
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